Why Do Women Make Shitty Musicians?
This question was sent to me by a reader and I appreciate it:
“Dick, why do women make such shitty musicians?”
I happen to disagree with the question. See, unlike women, men can disagree with things like questions and eye-rolls, even though they’re not technically statements to be disagreed with. It’s because questions and fucking eye-rolls and other bullshits are just like saying the same thing that is being implied. It’s the same.
Women always fuck that up. They think keeping their mouths shut gives them carte blanche to behave however fucking terribly they want.
Women don’t make shitty musicians. That’s like saying McDonald’s makes shitty Italian food. McDonald’s doesn’t even make pizza, what the fuck are you talking about?
Exactly.
Think of the greatest composers in history. That’s easy. You’ve got your Mozart and your Beethoven and your Mothersbaugh, but what about the not-so-greats? You could probably do some digging on the internet and if you were a woman you could convince a man to do some digging on the internet and then talk about the results like you fucking knew all of them already because as a woman you pull that manner of shit all the time. What you’d find in the annals of music is a sausage party so jam packed with men it belongs about a block from the airport.
Women are a fucking travesty to music. Music and women are natural enemies just like women and beer. Women fucking hate people having a good time and they’re outrageous control freaks. That’s also why women hate sex. They’re too busy orgasming to control it like men do, so it makes them bitter and full of spite. That’s also why they hate music. They consider it a form of rape. Ear rape.
Music isn’t like other professions either where a woman will occasionally slip through the cracks and actually be worth a fuck. That’s where I swoop in and charitably dole out a MenAreBetterThanWomen.com’s Honorary Man of the Month Award, while simultaneously man-ignoring all of said woman’s other fuck-ups. ‘Man-ignoring’ is when you behave as if you don’t know something, but you still keep it in your mind to act upon later and don’t throw your life off a fucking cliff like a lemming. Women only have one setting on their ignore switch. It’s either Behave Sensibly For a Few Days or Fucking Invent History as You Go! Fuck it!
Also, women practice too goddamn much to be any good at music. Practice is a silly and womanly thing. It’s just prancing around the sidelines while the real job gets done on the field — the field of music.
Here’s a good question: if women are men are equal, which they’re fucking not, but every fuckwit, idiot women on the planet wants to force feed it to young men halfway between breast and bottle; then why hasn’t there been a female Mozart? Why hasn’t some little girl hopped off her daddy’s lap and started jamming?
It’s because women completely suck at music. I’m sure science will prove exactly why someday — just like it proven women can’t read maps worth a fuck. Until then logic and man reason leads the way:
How many woman Mozarts have there been? None. Fuck you. Women suck at music.
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June 28th, 2006 at 6:48 pm - IP Man-Hash: eadd56da2c7c9
Damn right, Dick. I can count maybe fifteen women in the Rock ‘n’ Roll Hall of Fame. I don’t have time to count the men right now.
-Big Al
June 29th, 2006 at 9:03 am - IP Man-Hash: 5950bb08d3016
It’s funny because women always counter when faced with the fact that men are more left brained and better at science and math, that women are more right brained.
But the silly thing here is there are virtually NO famous women artists or composers.
June 29th, 2006 at 11:32 am - IP Man-Hash: f79a3556609b7
That’s because women think the right brain is responsible for wanting to write shitty poetry, but watching television instead.
-Dick
June 29th, 2006 at 2:03 pm - IP Man-Hash: e0bcc78c53f46
Women always seem to have this fabricated chip on their shoulder that they are more “cultured” than most men. They are very quick to hide behind an “artistic” state of mind whenever they are called on their bullshit, claiming they don’t keep up with trivial things like knowledge and fucking basic understanding. Why? They claim it’s because they’re too busy becoming “cultured” human beings. Yet for all the women that dedicate their lives to this shameless endeavor, the best female-lead band i’ve ever heard is Flyleaf. Which is kind of like saying my favorite runner in the special olympics was the one that didn’t fall down half way.
June 30th, 2006 at 5:39 am - IP Man-Hash: 9c83774e0375c
As a musician myself I have noticed in the rock world that there are quiet a few women who made it as singers and had a good voice.
But as for writing music? Only one group I know comes close to writing with any appeal and it is just barely touching anything as good as those they mimic. The Wilson sisters of heart has created some decent music most of it backed by men. And what they create on their own is weak compared to those that influenced them. Nancy Wilson created two small acoustic solos that only last for 30 seconds at the most. I can’t think of any other women musicans who have done as well as these two.
June 30th, 2006 at 5:50 am - IP Man-Hash: b1ce0aaa420ea
Dont forget Dick, we have the feminised bullshit that wommin can do “three things at once”(ofcourse no proof required),so it would include….
“Attempting to write shitty poetry”
“watching tv” and
“bitching on the phone”.
All at the same time.
June 30th, 2006 at 6:42 am - IP Man-Hash: 76cebfba7c181
Indeed, christian.
Well there was Wendy Carlos.
Oh wait.
His output dropped way, way off when he switched from being Walter to Wendy.
-wolfe
July 1st, 2006 at 8:42 pm - IP Man-Hash: 0b6502f254edb
Not only “where are the female Mozarts,” but where are the female Shakespeares, or Da Vincis, or Frank Lloyd Wrights?
As much as women hate to admit it, true art cannot be accomplished through emotional vomiting any more than can rocket science or nuclear physics…
July 2nd, 2006 at 12:32 am - IP Man-Hash: 5282ede88ccec
This is how women will do it………
The Recurring Pattern, Of Modern History
Step 1: Men invent a new industry or technology.
Step 2: As soon as the new industry or technology becomes super-safe to use and/or glamorous enough to be trendy, small numbers of women (brave “pioneers”!) become interested in it.
Step 3: Brave pioneering women start to discover the new field isn’t a bowl of cherries.
Step 4: Brave pioneering women get their feelings hurt and complain that men have developed the industry/field to suit themselves and have unfairly shut women out of their private little boy’s club.
Step 5: After court papers are filed, men start to create special programs to lower standards and advance the number of women to top positions in the field while paying less attention to such irrelevant things as qualifications and ability.
Step 6: After women achieve a number of high-level positions in the field, they begin gloating that men have lost their edge and no longer have what it takes to compete in this brave, new world of ‘ekwalitee’.
Step 7: Repeat.
July 2nd, 2006 at 12:35 am - IP Man-Hash: 5282ede88ccec
Well there was Wendy Carlos.
Oh wait.
His output dropped way, way off when he switched from being Walter to Wendy.
-wolfe
That is what happens when you expose yourself to female “whore-moans”.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:57 am - IP Man-Hash: 17c1748ab4845
That’s a good article. I did find a single female composer, who was very rare, called Dame Ethel Smythe. Being a man I thought I’d give her the benefit of the doubt and actually listen to her stuff before deciding anything. Took me maybe 2 months to track down a recording, and yep it’s crap. All emotional neo-classical (easiest style to write in as you don’t even need to learn the rules of classical music) crap (for good neo-classical see Poulenc or Prokoviev, both men) wishy washy female bollocks without a real point. Upon looking up her life she apparently was also a suffragette and conducted a women’s chorus from her prison window. I’m not surprised. It was probably a crap chorus and gave the guards a hard time.
That’s the only female composer I’ve ever heard of. And believe me, I know a lot of composers. From the dawn of Renaissance counterpoint to the latest polystylists. All the good ones are men. No exceptions.
Reason? According to a Cambridge professor (and they’re usually quite intelligent people these guys) women completely lack creativity. They can match a man in terms of work done, but not quality. They can play a Chopin piano concerto, but not actually compose one. They can read and comment on a book (and that’s generous) but they can’t write one (unless it’s a recipy book, but even then men write much better ones - all great chefs are, wait for it, men).
July 12th, 2006 at 3:40 pm - IP Man-Hash: 7968d85280182
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July 18th, 2006 at 4:57 am - IP Man-Hash: e7ae5188092ae
Not only “where are the female Mozarts,� but where are the female Shakespeares, or Da Vincis, or Frank Lloyd Wrights?
I can’t speak much for art or architecture, but as for literature/poetry… The Bronte sisters, Ayn Rand, Maya Angelou, Sylvia Plath, etc. Those are just a few off the top of my head, but there are thousands. Do they match Shakespeare? Probably not, but then again, I don’t know if anyone (man or woman) has really matched Shakespeare.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:03 am - IP Man-Hash: 76cebfba7c181
I agree, Alex, women tend to be quite good writers. I could be snarky and say it has to do with making things up, but let’s leave that.
I think you’ve got some merits in your post when it comes to authors, though none when it comes to poets.
I’d have added Jane Austen. Even though I don’t like her work, I recognize her as a superb writer.
Of your list… Rand is generally a dreadful writer. In fairness, English wasn’t her first language. We the Living is her most literary work, with Anthem as perhaps the most pretending to literary, but Atlas Shrugged, intriguing as political and moral commentary falls grossly short of good literature. The Fountainhead somewhere in the middle I suppose.
The Bronte’s? I’ll pass, but you’re right, they are part of the canon.
On a tangent, wasn’t it Barbara Tuchman who popularized Lord Grey’s phrase “The lamps are going out all over Europe…”? So there you (possibly) go.
Angelou? Plath? Maybe for a litcrit, but honestly, their work will be minor indeed in a century.
Angelou’s efforts to overcome a tragic childhood and difficult life are admirable; they are to be honored and respected. But her poetry?
Neither Plath nor Ted Hughes (however did he become Poet Laureate?) will be significant to the ages. And Hughes was better than Plath.
In poetry I think you’re on very weak ground, Alex. Wordsworth. Yeats. Even Coleridge in an opium frenzy.
You raise a good point when you mention how many (none) rank with Shakespeare. I’ll match you to the degree anyone can. Consider the King James Bible. I don’t care if one is Christian or not, this is a stunning work of literature, definitely worthy of the ages. So many phrases from it permeate the language.
And its authors? Men all.
Others?
If I’m allowed in translation, perhaps Homer?
Chaucer’s striking.
Men all.
But yes. In the art of making things up, women can sometimes do very well indeed.
-wolfe
July 20th, 2006 at 7:17 am - IP Man-Hash: 980cc8a8ac1a7
To be entirely fair, there are/were female singers I enjoy. Monteserrat Caballe, Lola Flores and Maria Tănase are about all I can think of off the top of my head that aren’t pop.
July 20th, 2006 at 9:25 am - IP Man-Hash: 6304fa2435bae
You can probably add Emily Dickinson to the list of significant, talented female poets.
July 22nd, 2006 at 2:49 pm - IP Man-Hash: f3ab3a24c5385
I always like Jean Auel myself.
July 22nd, 2006 at 3:31 pm - IP Man-Hash: af8f493b67ea8
I think Jean Auel is a great writer, her book ‘clan of the cave bear’ was a good book, I found her ideas and writing to be original but there was something about her stories that I could never fully get into… haven’t been able to put my finger on why for a while now.
August 4th, 2006 at 6:44 am - IP Man-Hash: bc780dabec0ff
I’ll give some credit to female musicians….I can respect any woman who can play a musical instrument….it at least shows she knows how to do SOMETHING other than look cute, show tits and ass, and lipsynch her pop tune on Saturday Night Live…What ever happened to girl bands (not GROUPS) like the Go-Go’s, the Bangles, and Klymaxx, anyhow? None of these acts ever adopted man-bashing as their main hook-they took the time to actually try to MAKE music and say SOMETHING constructive, unlike many of today’s acts! Think Jessica, Beyonce, or Christina are gonna pick up a guitar like Joan Jett, Lita Ford, or even Sheryl Crow? I think not-it would mess up their nails!
For those who don’t know, Klymaxx was an all female R&B band from the 80’s….
August 4th, 2006 at 1:48 pm - IP Man-Hash: 76cebfba7c181
Alex: yeah, I very reluctantly agree on Dickinson. Not a big fan myself.
Auel? Bleh. Yes she is stylistically competent, but her prose leaves me cold. She’ll be like poor Doug Henning or Evel Knievel in a hundred years.
Ihook, welcome to the site. I can’t give much credit to female composers — name one of serious note (and I mean one that ranks with Bach, Beethoven, Handel, heck maybe even Elgar or Sibelius.)
Female guitar players seemingly similarly.
Female singers? Yeah. Annie Lennox did some amazing things with her voice. Weird, but amazing. And she’s just one.
True on your point on girl-bands back then. Not sure they were trying to say something constructive, but they weren’t being destructive.
-wolfe
August 17th, 2006 at 1:26 pm - IP Man-Hash: 1ec423438eddb
Just out of interest, how many of these comments do you think are written by women posing as men?
August 17th, 2006 at 1:37 pm - IP Man-Hash: 980cc8a8ac1a7
I do believe you are the second, L-Dog. Alex being the first.
Clearly, Luka does not pose as a fat arsed man when posting. :)
August 17th, 2006 at 1:38 pm - IP Man-Hash: 980cc8a8ac1a7
Oops. Scratch that. You’re the first. Congrats.
August 17th, 2006 at 2:00 pm - IP Man-Hash: 4555637db20cf
L-Dog? Does that stand for Lady-Dog ?
If it does, then can I suggest a five-letter word that can be used to describe female canines.
August 18th, 2006 at 3:27 pm - IP Man-Hash: 732987aa5d932
wolfe said:
Auel? Bleh. Yes she is stylistically competent, but her prose leaves me cold. She’ll be like poor Doug Henning or Evel Knievel in a hundred years.
—I agree that she isn’t the greatest author however comparing female authors in general I consider her better than most. Besides the caveman fuck scenes, shes in the very least a realist. Her writing leaves something to be desired I agree, its almost like reading a scientific novel.–
–Strength and Honor-
August 25th, 2006 at 10:41 am - IP Man-Hash: 861968ba93252
Music can be described precisely by math.I think that is where they choke on it.They aren’t wired properly for that task.
August 25th, 2006 at 12:13 pm - IP Man-Hash: 76cebfba7c181
@abaddon. Agreed, perhaps. But I still don’t like her cold, sterile, corpselike writing. If I had to pick a 20th/21st C female literary author I’d say… uh… OK, I admit it’s a bit of a challenge. Almost makes you think… let me figure out how to say this… that it’s possible that male authors could be superior to female authors. I wonder if there’s a more concise way of saying that.
More seriously, Barbara Tuchman’s good, style-wise (and fact/content-wise). Some ok female mystery, fantasy, and sf novelists. P.D. James springs to mind. Maybe Penelope Mortimer. Patricia Cornwell is ok when she’s edited; and like the vast masses, I tend to think J.K. Rowling is as well — when edited. Cornwell is appallingly bad when not edited; Rowling descends to mediocrity when not edited.
@Beretta. Welcome to the site.
A good point on music and math. Music also undeniably appeals to the right side of the brain as well, so you’d think women could at least half appreciate it.
-wolfe
August 26th, 2006 at 2:52 am - IP Man-Hash: 109bcf0dfd9d2
Women are without a doubt better novelists than men, at least in the 20th/21st Century. As women are known to be better at language/communication and English than men, this is hardly surprising.
Patricia Cornwell, Paullina Simons, Linda Goodman and Auel are great writers.
August 26th, 2006 at 11:10 am - IP Man-Hash: 76cebfba7c181
Female, if Patricia Cornwell is your standard for a great writer then you are sadly lacking in exposure to great writing. And if Linda Goodman lands on the list… yikes.
She is a dreadful writer (as far as I can tell), or something tragic has happened in her life (be it drugs/alcohol, depression, the loss of a loved one… I don’t know.)
Susanne Kirk, Scribner’s executive editor, is the woman who made Cornwell’s work readable, even good. Sara Freed (at Mysterious Press) is responsible for the focus upon the Scarpetta character. [Yes, they are both women, and you'd have a point if you argued that].
Read The Hornet’s Nest and tell me she’s a good writer. Seriously.
As for Paullina Simons, she appears to be a historical/romance novelist. I see nothing in the excerpts of her books that tells me she’d be superior (or even as good as) a Bernard Cornwell or a Jack Whyte (and I’m deliberately choosing two workmanlike male authors).
Linda Goodman: who? Oh, an astrologist. “Love Signs: A New Approach to the Human Heart”. Second sentence: “On the Taurus level, the symbolic Infant soul has become, symbolical”
Honestly. Someone who writes that (and leaves it like that) to open their book is not a good writer. Well. OK, maybe if he or she is drunk. 24/7.
Auel’s writing is, as I said above, cold and sterile. I can’t really consider it ‘good’, any more than I’d consider a proof of the Poincare conjecture good writing.
No, none of these women are “great” writers. Cornwell, edited, might aspire to good. Simons seems a genre writer, but not a “great” one. Having only skimmed excerpts of her books, I can only judge her prose craftsmanship (fair), though it is said the strength of her work is in her characterizations. Fair enough.
Who are some recent great writers?
Certainly James Ellroy. [Don't read if Silence of the Lambs made you sick]. Don’t start with American Tabloid, though. It’s a structurally complex novel that demands a lot of the reader. And I’d really avoid The Cold Six Thousand, which, while good, is stylistically unbelievably annoying (to me at least).
Brown’s Requiem is good, though Blood on the Moon is where he really started to hit his stride and find his voice. His LA Quartet is excellent — penultimate novel in that being LA Confidential.
His plots are extremely sound; his characterizations superb. Stylistically, he works to create a glorious symphony out of a minimalist use of notes (language).
le Carre (Cornwell’s brother I believe) stands out. From The Spy who Came in from the Cold to Smiley’s people, and on, some truly outstanding prose. Read “The Spy”, dated though it is, and tell me how it compares with “symbolic, symbolical”.
Ray Bradbury (”dark they were and golden-eyed”, “North, said the Captain”) had a superb mastery of imagery, language, and wrote with some interesting social statements. Almost a poet, really. Contrast with Patricia Cornwell’s wonderful and subtle exposition of character (”Brazil did not believe prostitution was right” and “West believed women were great.”.)
I think all three men will be read a hundred years from now. I don’t think any of the women you mention will be, with the possible exception of some of Cornwell’s early work. I do think Tuchman and Rowling (two other women I mentioned) might be.
Rowling has a truly impressive fluidity of style that is very rare. Tuchman has readability; she offers a degree accessibility to complex subjects that is also rare (though not as rare as Rowling’s fluidity). I would say Paul Johnson is her superior in nearly every respect. Maybe Massie. Not sure about Ferguson. But that still leaves her ahead of a lot of male historians.
Seriously though Female. You need to read more, and more widely.
-wolfe
August 26th, 2006 at 5:04 pm - IP Man-Hash: 109bcf0dfd9d2
wolfe, did you deliberately leave words out of Linda’s quote? I don’t think that’s very fair. This is the actual full sentence so we can all see she is a good writer, “On the Taurus level, the symbolic Infant soul has become, symbolically, a healthy, chubby Baby…”
And I don’t know how you knew this, but yes, something terrible did happen to Linda, her daughter was abducted.
August 26th, 2006 at 5:57 pm - IP Man-Hash: 109bcf0dfd9d2
Other female writers I forgot to mention, who are brilliant include Anne Rice, ie, The Witching Hour is a fabulously, delicious read. Set in an old New Orleans House, very atmospheric. Forget Lasher, Taltos, Viola as simply repetitive and the last is actually quite stupid. In the Vampire chronicles, Interview, and The Vampire Lestat are okay, then things go downhill from the Queen of the Damned onwards.
August 27th, 2006 at 4:27 am - IP Man-Hash: 2da9b7d34e824
Good God, Female, shut the fuck up. You wouldn’t know good writing if it was thrown at you.
wolfe knows it because he’s a man and men are intuitive.
-Dick
August 27th, 2006 at 4:53 am - IP Man-Hash: 109bcf0dfd9d2
I wont shut it! Other good female writers include Mary Wollstonecraft Shelley, Virginia Andrews and Liz Greene. Some people may also like Sylvia Plath and Virginia Woolfe. I don’t.
In terms of female musicians, the following all play instruments, compose their own songs and are highly talented.
Tori Amos - piano
Bjork - guitar
Other female singers who write their own music, which is brilliant are:
Beth Gibbons (Portishead)
Tracey Thorn (Everything but the girl)
Ric Bunga
Kirsty Hawkshaw
Alison Goldfrapp
Pink
Gwen Stefani
Missy Higgins (Piano)
Fiona Apple
Sarah McLachlan
Erykah Badu
Nina Simone (deceased)
August 27th, 2006 at 5:11 am - IP Man-Hash: 980cc8a8ac1a7
What kind of intrument is that, Female?
Concussion by any chance?
August 27th, 2006 at 5:12 am - IP Man-Hash: 85eaeaa69c999
The problem with guys and anguage is that the language is always taught by some boring ass female and the subject itself takes very little interest to guys.
It’s a easy subject for those with a boring female way of life. Reading is more interesting. But the communication thing is another feminist lie.
Just because a man don’t fucking care about nouns, verbs and adjectives don’t make him less a communicator. Men are much better at giving directions than women. Bad idea to ask a women for directions.
In the real world a man can get straight the point clearly without the boring details that a woman would give you and much less confusion.
Bottom line here is that it don’t take a English major to effectively get a point across and Dick has already discussed the fact that women have no fucking point. Also that men created languages so how can you believe the myth that women are better at something? Don’t bother we know you’re fucked up.
Why should anyone believe what you say here when you have a serious reading comprehension disability?
Now if you were as good at English as you say you women are, then you would know what the hell “No women Allowed” means. Allow a man to
explain this to you. Get the fuck off this site and don’t come back!
August 27th, 2006 at 5:30 am - IP Man-Hash: 109bcf0dfd9d2
Oops. Bic Runga, not Ric Bunga.
More talented female artistes are:
Lou Rhodes (Lamb)
Linda Janssen (WBSS)
Dirty Lucy (instruments: guitar and electric violin)
Dido
DJ Sister Bliss (Faithless)
August 27th, 2006 at 5:40 am - IP Man-Hash: 85eaeaa69c999
Damn you’re ignorant.
These women can’t write worth a shit. I like a few of Gwen songs but her lyrics suck. Pink has cheap lyrics and Sarah Mc has boring lyrics though she can play. Women aren’t good at writing and they really aren’t good at anything when you get down to it other than being a whore.
Thats what they are good at. Many of us see through their lies and manipulation so I wouldn’t note that.
You missed one fair female artist and for a girl she is ok. Her lyrics suck though. Susanna Hoffs she uses her wasting sex appeal because she can’t write good lyrics. She is whorish on stage. And she even slept with Prince. Make that whore x 2.
Here are two women which you missed that have written some decent lryics. And they give credit to the men that influenced them.
Ann and Nancy Wilson.
Female like everyting else you’ve said you continue showing you have no sense or taste.
August 27th, 2006 at 5:53 am - IP Man-Hash: 109bcf0dfd9d2
Susanna Hoffs from teh Bangles? Yeah, I know I included Nina Simone, but the rest I tried to keep recent, as in the last decade. But sure if you want to go back to the 70’s and 80’s, let’s see:
Carly Simons
Lita Ford
Janis Joplin
Olivia Newton John (shut up)
Courtney Love (guitar, vocals)
Martika
Sophie B Hawkins
Stevie Nicks
I’m sure there are many others. You will notice Banarama is not on my list.
August 27th, 2006 at 7:42 am - IP Man-Hash: a72aea8406d27
Thankyou Bob. Saved me the trouble. I think I ranted about creativity and innovation elsewhere.
I think it was Christina Hoff-Summers who said that if women ran the world we’d still be living in grass huts. I’d maintain we’d not have advanced that far.
Bullshit female. Using more words and getting all touchy-feely does not make one a better communicator. I suspect you are allowing your own misguided gender solidarity to interfere with your judgement.
Proof positive that women only need ten percent of men’s talent to gain recognition.
I’d have Mary Shelley up there however.
Your list of female musicians inhabit a few decades out of centuries of musical history. There are, and have always been, some magnificent female vocalists. In the true test of musical talent - the creation and performance of innovative music - they are notably absent.
BTW where is Melba? Where is Joan Sutherland? Jacquline Dupre? June Bronhill? Ella Fitzgerald? Billie Holiday?
Your narrow musical taste is denying you the experience of some seriously good female performers.
Wolfe:-
Coincidentally I’m reading Bernard Cornwall’s Arthur series right at the moment. You description of him as workmanlike is apt but I would say his historical knowledge is quite sound.
I’m wondering if you have come across any of Sara Douglas’ work?
Or Terry Pratchett?
August 27th, 2006 at 8:21 pm - IP Man-Hash: 76cebfba7c181
Female, please note how I specifically cited three writers that are superior (and remain superior to all you’ve mentioned — though Rice may, in time, challenge le Carre), and I outlined why they were superior. I suggested specific books, and their strengths and weaknesses.
You just came back with a laundry list. You can do more. That said, I welcome your thoughts on the topic.
@Female: you’re ignoring my main point that the men are better. And they are. Seriously. Can you honestly say Linda holds a candle to James Ellroy?
Yep, I truncated it. (I should have added ellipses though). I don’t feel the full quote adds anything at all. Do you? Can you explain how it does? The full quote is, if anything, worse. No, I don’t think she is remotely a good writer. I never truncate or bowlerdize quotes for dishonest reasons. Never. I truncated it because it said enough in what was going to be a long post.
With the utmost respect for your intellect (which I’ve generally spoken of positively on this site), I sincerely believe that if you think adding the final 4 words changes that into good writing, then you’ve a tin ear for language. Sorry. Tell me I’m wrong and explain why.
Very sorry to hear that. Doesn’t make her writing good (or bad). That stands on its own and makes it execrable. If she has better writing than that, and wrote that bad book while in the throes of being upset over her daughter, then let’s look at that better writing.
James Ellroy’s mother was a prostitute and was murdered in a dark alley when he was 10. Also a tragedy. While it may have formed his personality (darkly), and is horrific, it doesn’t make his writing good. Or bad.
Most good writers (and a lot of bad ones) have rather horrible things happen to them. Some think it stimulates creativity. Let’s leave that as speculation for another time.
@Female: I think you are probably correct on Anne Rice, and your segmentation of her writing is bang-on. That single paragraph alone redeems the rest of what you write. I don’t much like her, but she definitely has a style and power. Check out her cheesy (but beloved by women) erotica written as Anne Rampling. An ex-gf introduced me to those. Odd, but well-written.
@Female: Shelley, Plath, etc. (Yes I know you liked one and not the other). Be honest. These are all high second tier writers. Or low first-tier. In the canon of Shakespeare, Chaucer… in the golden thread (10 manpoints for who identifies that reference, even Female — no, Google will not help you materially) of English Literature, none of these women with the possible exception of Shelley, will stand as canonical in 2 centuries.
@Female: On musicians? Why mention this? It’s not relevant to the topic. We’re not discussing lyricists; if we were, gay men would own us all. Women are crap, and straight men are only marginally better. Cole Porter and his ilk rule.
To your list, though. Tori Amos is an exceptional woman. Lara St. John (you didn’t mention her) is also rather interesting. The rest of the musicians you mention (Sarah MacLachlan?) … please. Some lyrics that are interesting to a third year ‘feminism in song’ class do not make them good writers in the english canon. Seriously.
Amos has, if nothing else, an ear for language that is exquisitely tuned. I am not sure if she has a pen for it. Consider her introduction to “The Dreaming”, by Neil Gaiman. Would you seriously suggest this is for the ages?
Have you even read any of Amos’ prose work? I have. (Did you even know she’d written prose?)
Some of the women you mention are downright strange… did google run amok? Virginia Andrews?
Female, you are very welcome to post to this topic as you wish. If Dick doesn’t want you here, I’ll move it to my blog.
I think you’re probably right about Rice (and I don’t like her writing, but admire it if that makes sense).
But honestly, none of the women you’ve mentioned holds a candle to Ellroy or Bradbury or even le Carre. And you’ve presented no analysis of their writing to argue otherwise.
If you genuinely believe that poor astrology woman is actually a good writer, quote me some of her good writing.
But please, please… check out Ellroy, Kingsley Amis, Graham Greene, Michael Connelly even.
-wolfe
August 27th, 2006 at 8:31 pm - IP Man-Hash: 76cebfba7c181
I’ve a long response to Female which is presumably awaiting moderation. To address gwallan:
I agree with your analysis of Shelley+Fitzgerald et al.
Oh yes, Cornwell’s historical knowledge is excellent. And by workmanlike I do not mean to criticize the man. My writing is, at best, workmanlike, and shines only once in a rare while. Were I as good a writer (and as well accepted as he), I’d be happy indeed.
I simply believe there is a canon of literature — people that will be read in a thousand years, much as Shakespeare still is today.
I don’t think Cornwell’s part of it, though I certainly agree he’s a cut above Tom Clancy and five or six cuts above Danielle Steele.
He wrote the Sharpe series, if you didn’t know. Also very good.
Sara Douglas: No, I hadn’t. Incredibly epic stuff from the look of it (e.g. the Troy Game). Her Darkwitch Rising title makes me think of Susan Cooper’s “The Dark is Rising” series.
Terry Pratchett: of course. Good stuff, although Douglas Adams (RIP) remains my favorite author of that general type. I also think I like Neil Gaiman’s work (sometime Pratchett writing partner) better. But Pratchett has a wonderful fluid style that remains readable and funny, and possibly more accessible to non-native-English speakers (than, say Adams).
Let’s also add Madeleine L’Engle, one of the finest children’s book writers (especially one who incorporated mathematics) of the last century. If you’ve nieces or nephews, Female, she might be a great choice for reading.
-wolfe
August 28th, 2006 at 2:04 am - IP Man-Hash: b6dfbb16ea57a
@wolfe
Little bit of favouritism with Douglas - she’s a local. Like Tolkien she is a lecturer specialising in myth and legend and her work reflects this.
I’d read all Adams work before discovering Pratchett. I’ve come to prefer the latter perhaps because of the broader scope. His two Science of Discworld books are well worth a read. Each stands as a novel but he alternates chapters between a story line and some very astute treatises on the philosophy of science, history and the arts.
I didn’t see your use of “workmanlike” re Cornwall as a slight. I’d say that is quite an accurate positioning. I’m just a sucker for anything to do with the Arthur legends.
Actually I’ve been quite lazy for about twenty years now and restricted myself mainly to fantasy/sci fi. It’s been mainly Donaldson, Herbert, Heinlein and the like.
Just remembered another woman with some talent - Janny Wurts. Her ongoing Wars of Light and Shadow series is excellent.
Ignoring all of that, and possibly to my embarassment, my favourite book of all time is Puckoon by Spike Milligan.
August 28th, 2006 at 2:47 am - IP Man-Hash: 109bcf0dfd9d2
What kind of intrument is that, Female?
Concussion by any chance?
:) Good one. Not sure how he she died. Too lazy too google.
August 28th, 2006 at 3:48 am - IP Man-Hash: 109bcf0dfd9d2
Narrow? I don’t think so. My list includes House, Rock, Hip-Hop, Soul, Blues, Jazz, Pop, a dash of rap (not too much!!) Folk and electronic trance. I’d say that’s pretty broad. And I don’t even know what genre Bjork should go into!
As for Melba and Dame Joan….I don’t “do” musica